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Opinion: Parents and 'Domestic Surveillance'(Newsbytes Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)Washington Post editorial writer was online to discuss her op-ed on parents using "domestic surveillance" on their children's instant messaging and Internet use. The increasing prevalence of electronic communication among teens and children has created a dilemma for parents, some of whom resort to spying in order to monitor the potentially harmful content reaching their children. ____________________ Hi Ruth, I also have nine yr old and 11 yr old daughters. The nine year old isn't interested in Instant Messages yet, but my 11 yr old loves them. As well as giving her the same speech as you probably did, I posted a set of rules right beside the computer for all my kids to see. Common sense things, such as: Never give your full name, phone number, school info, etc. anywhere on the Internet. Never chat with anyone you don't know in real life, add them to your ignore list immediately if they IM you. Don't put your e-mail address on any forms you fill out online to get free stuff (most likely your e-mail address goes directly to SPAM lists). But, I also installed Net Nanny. Not only does it prevent them from typing in or receiving IMs with objectionable material, it also filters the Internet. This is really important, because even the most innocuous Web search can bring up some dicey material by accident. While I have the option of reading logs of my daughter's messages, I never look at them though, I trust her. It's the other creeps out there in Internetland that I DON'T trust. That's all good advice. Thanks for sharing it. I did not originally install the parental controls that are offered by my Internet provider because it didn't seem necessary--my kids aren't looking for those kinds of site--but I think that now that they're a little older I am going to, just in case. _______________________ I understand your concerns and, as you pointed out, it can't be stressed enough that it begins younger and younger. Just after the first of the year, I found IM messages my 13 year old 8th grade daughter had saved to the hard-drive from a 14 year old boy in her class. He was asking her to "talk dirty" to him and was using extremely explicit language (slang). I think she wanted to get caught; she knows I check the computer but still saved the messages and she seemed to be a very reluctant participant. What better way to get out of that situation than getting "caught?" Among other things, she was immediately grounded and she still isn't allowed on the computer. Well, if I'm home she's allowed to listen to music but the IM is gone. I also took her cell phone except for certain times when I think she needs it so she can't text message. Did I mention that my computer is in my dining room and set up in such a way that anyone in the living room or dining room can see the screen? Bugs the heck out of my 17 year old son, because he knows if I walk by I look, and if he minimizes something, I'm going to ask to see it. Refusing means the computer access goes away. And yes, he has (does) go to porn sites and I do check to see what he's looking at (because he never clears it completely). And I have "good" kids. Even the boy involved in the exchanges with my daughter is a "good" kid. But this is the world they live in. And it's a scary world for a parent. The more of these messages I read the scarier I'm thinking the world is. I do think having the computer in a public place is very helpful. _______________________ I am a parent, but as my child is very young, I haven't had to deal with this issue. However, other parents have told me that the best way they have found to keep their child safe is to simply not allow computers in the bedroom. Instead, their kids work/play on their computers in the kitchen or family room. Parents can keep an eye on what's going on without sneaking around, and kids are less inclined to get into trouble if they know their parents are steps away. I agree and we have instituted a rule that requires the laptop to be in a public place--though right now my older daughter is asking if in her room with the door open is adequate. _______________________ I am so glad you wrote this column as I am struggling with the same issues myself. My 12 year old has a blog on Myspace that she does not know that I know about. I check it periodically to see what she has posted but I do feel guilty about it. I have no plans to let her know that I know about it, unless I see something so egregious that it really needs to be addressed. So far the worst thing I have seen is that she posted some pictures of herself with captions saying "This is when I was drunk." While that bothered me, I know that teens will experiment and it did not seem bad enough to confront her about it. If I ever saw posts or pictures indicating that she was potentially hooking up with predators, I would intervene immediately. But you are so right, what is a good mom to do? I have to say that I disagree with you about telling your daughter that you know about her Myspace posting. It seems to me that "snooping" on her blog is very different from reading a diary. It is out there, in cyberspace, for pretty much anyone who wants to to see. Therefore, she has no expectation of privacy in the blog--even from a parent. And what is a 12 year old doing drinking, or even pretending to be drinking. If I were you, I would tell her that you heard about the Myspace phenomenon, looked at her blog, and saw some things that were, to put it mildly, interesting. Waiting until there's something "bad enough" to confront her about seems awfully late. And all the kids on Myspace need to be warned about posting pictures and personal information about themselves. Good luck with everything. _______________________ The parent monitoring a child's Web site log via Cybersitter or other child protection software will miss the new way to access inappropriate material: peer-to-peer file sharing. Kids can share music and videos via software like Kazaa, Nicotine, etc. That video entitled Simpson's episode 12 may actually be some East European porn that makes one ill and nostalgic for a centerfold revival. Parent software cannot screen these since they are image files without text to search on. Open up a few large video files and see what they really are. Daughters are just as vulnerable: they may select a Britney Spears file to share and unintentionally get some very different. Also, IM is much better than the previous software. In chat rooms, anybody could log in and be whatever they said they were. IMs are much better at limiting the range of contacts to a limited number of known people. My kids aren't allowed to download anything without my approval, but that may be easy for me to say since they are still pretty young. _______________________ Good afternoon: Read your column in the paper and it was deja vu all over again - we faced similar issues with our two children as they were going through their teen years. As it turned out with them, we took the approach that our President takes today on issues of personal privacy and terrorism: trample on privacy in the name of safety. Given the same situation again, we would probably do the same thing again. We, too, installed surveillance software (a key logger), but we also periodically searched their rooms, backpacks and the car they drove, and the neighborhood network usually reported where they went and with whom. I know it sounds draconian, and maybe it was, but we were so concerned about their safety online, as well as out in the world, that we judged it the prudent thing to do, even if it wasn't "right." Mind you, we did not always like what we discovered, and we were not completely successful in our preventative efforts, but finally, we stopped the intense surveillance of their computer use (but, we continued to check the browser history and checked the Temp folder where web pages for frequently visited sites were stored). The only security it provided us, as we sent them off to college, was that it appeared that we had done a fair job of teaching them good values and how to make smart decisions. Nonetheless the old adage, trust but verify, made us feel a little bit better. Anyway, thanks very much for your column - it raises important issues that ALL parents need to consider in today's cyber-world. Thanks for your message--I agree that when it's an issue of safety vs. privacy that safety has to win. And I'm glad you made it through those years. Wish me luck! _______________________ My question: Why is this a problem? It's a no-brainer to me -- just say no. My 13-year-old girl recently got a computer for her birthday. She has email, but no IM, though all her friends have it. I've let her know that I respect her privacy, but if I have concerns, which I promised to discuss with her first, I may surveil her email. As my mother told me many years ago, "You're still under my roof." Parents shouldn't abdicate their responsibility. We're the adults, after all. Hi. I know a lot of parents allow e-mail but not IM. I find IM a little more controllable in the sense that I don't have to worry about spam and I know who is on the buddy list. My husband and I say no to lots of things but I don't think that answers the question of whether and when to surveill. _______________________ Regarding cell phone use. How can I find out who belongs to the phone numbers on my child's cell phone? I am concerned that my daughter is talking to individuals she has met over the Internet that she has never met in person that may be age inappropriate for her. Is there a certification process that is available to have these people checked out or age verified? Well, I'm not a technology person, and we haven't yet entered the world of cell phones and text messaging, but I would just ask your daughter or, if you're concerned that she's talking to inappropriate people, call the numbers yourself. And if you're still not satisfied, limit the numbers she can call to people who you've approved. _______________________ What is a parent to do with IM, MySpace and Yahoo email, and all sorts of tools that kids have available? Some days I feel that my teen is fine and tells me enough information to understand her and her emotions. Other days I feel she is acting very distant, and I want to snoop on her email or MySpace to know what is going on? What do you say? Do parents have the right to log into their kids electronic accounts and read their electronic correspondence? or even check their text messages on the cell phones (this last one is easy to do). I think parents have the right to do whatever they think is necessary to keep their kids safe. Certainly I think Myspace is a matte of something in a public domain--if they don't want you reading it they shouldn't be posting it. I think the amount of snooping you do depends on what's going on--or what you fear may be going on--with your child. _______________________ Just a thought - anything I write on my computer at work is subject to reading/viewing/termination by my employer. Because they own the equipment that I am working on. I know it is different for parents and children on a number of levels, but I think it is a good lesson for children to learn that what they write will never be private online - email forwards are TOO easy - blogs are NOT private, etc. Parents should be a teacher in this regard too. I have the same thing here at The Washington Post. Everyday when I sign on it tells me that I have no expectation of privacy. But I do have some expectation of privacy in the emails I send and receive at home, and the question for me is whether my kids have some (lesser) expectation of privacy or none at all. My older daughter argues with conviction that she is not discussing anything inappropriate in her IM's but also that she is talking about things that she doesn't necessarily want me to know about (e.g. who she has a crush on.) I respect that she doesn't need to tell me absolutely everything and that's why I think the work analogy isn't perfect. _______________________ What is the matter with saying 'No'? Can't adults in America say 'No' to their children anymore? What will this teach the children? If you are ambiguous about something and don't really approve, giving in and saying 'yes' just because 'everyone else does it' is doing a grave disservice to your children. Here in Europe, we point at American children as examples of the worst-behaved children in the world. Well, now I can see why. You want to say 'No', but you're too afraid to say it. My advice? Just say 'No'. With all respect, I don't think it's a matter of being afraid to say no. It's the complications of deciding what, precisely, to say no to. _______________________ Have you ever taken your children to Internet safety sites, designed for kids, such as NetSmartz Workshop ? Not yet. We've been talking a lot about net behavior, though, and they've been getting a lot of education about it at their school, which I think is terrific. _______________________ My son, who has just entered his 18th year, is a senior and good at studies. So far, I have put some restrictions about the nature of Internet sites that may be visited etc. But I have observed that his reading habit is gone since he has started using Internet. Should I monitor what sites he visits? If yes, how? It's easy to check the history of sites (there's a history button at the top of the browser) and I know parents who tell their kids that if they empty the history folder they will take it as a sign they are doing something inappropriate and lose their computer privileges. _______________________ About this morning's article: Did you "cringe" at the mother looking at her teenage son's history logs at all, or at the fact that she was monitoring to distinguish between porn sites? I would think that as a mother, I would not feel bad at all about trying to make sure that my son was not looking at porn all the time on the Internet - I wouldn't particularly care about distinctions among types of porn. Of course, I'd also have discussions with him about it - but no "boys will be boys" attitude for teenagers in my house. Just sharing a reaction. I cringed at lots of things, I think--the thought of having to look at the sites, to think about your child looking at pornography, to figure out what your stance should be vis a vis pornography. It made me relieved to have daughters, but maybe that is a false sense of security these days. _______________________ I'm curious as to how all these snoopers felt when their own parents were doing the same thing to them? My mom swears she did not read my diary when I was younger--but she did call this morning to say she thought I should install the software, since the world is a much more dangerous place than when I was growing up. _______________________ You said "..Yes, nine sounded awfully young to us, too, and, yes, we thought hard about just saying no, to her and her older sister." Your reasoning was because taking away the IM was like taking away the phone. Do you let your children talk with just anyone on the phone? Do you let them talk for more than ten minutes at a time on the phone? Do they have their own cell phones? Yes - nine is too young. You obviously feel uncomfortable letting both girls use the IM. If you feel that way, then just say "No". It really is a good lesson for a child to learn. No, they don't have cell phones (we've said no to that, despite requests from the older one) and they don't spend unlimited time on the phone or talk to anyone. But the same is true of their Internet use--it's limited in time and in who they talk to. _______________________ I'm the father of two boys, 12 and 8, and I have taught a course I called "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Internet" to elementary school children. I spent so much time talking safety, rules, what you can and cannot put in blogs, profiles, Web pages, etc that the kids would parrot them back when I started again. But I also handed out a safety sheet to parents which said, basically, trust but verify. I gave them a list of monitoring and blocking strategies in increasing order of restriction and suggested they pick what works for them and their kids. But the bottom line should be what I tell my kids: they can do what they want but I reserve the right to see what they're up to. NO guarantee of privacy. I pretty much agree. What I've basically told my kids is that we (my husband and I) reserve the right to do whatever we feel we need to do but that we will let them know if we are monitoring. _______________________ Hi, thanks for your chat today! However, I must personally say that many measures here do not go far enough. Personally, I home school my children so that they have little to no contact with other kids their age. Doing so, along with only letting them use the Internet when I sit with them (and keeping it locked in a gun safe when not in use), I am able to make sure my children are not exposed to anything horrible, and that they can enjoy their youth. Thanks for your message, but do you really think that having little or no contact with other kids their age is what's best for children? what happens later in life? _______________________ Going back to the comment about knowing that email and blogs are not private, I think kids (and I have two girls) should be well aware that anything they write can be cut and pasted (sometimes completely out of context) and forwarded to any or all of their friends by someone else. That can have real world real time consequences in middle school. This is a really critical point, I think. I've been talking with my kids about good old-fashioned gossiping for some time, and trying to explain how hurtful it can be, and how unlikely it is that anything they tell someone in "secret" will remain so. Obviously, the possibilities for this are exponentially expanded by the cut and paste function and I think we all really need to be reminding the kids--and ourselves!--how dangerous it is to write anything in an email that we are not comfortable having read far and wide. _______________________ What's a parent to do? What'd your parents do when the telephones were invented? Or cars? Or -gasp- movies (albeit silent movies to begin)? They taught values to their children--the values are their choice, some choose church, some choose being strict, but they parented with long-term objectives. I am absolutely amazed at how many parents are simply interested in knowing everything their kid does--as if they didn't' do a good enough job raising the kid? What happens when this evil world confronts them at 18 in college? Do they just shut the door and call mom or dad? C'mon, be realistic. Sorry, but I don't think you're being terribly realistic. Yes, by all means, it's critical for parents to teach values and model good behavior, but I don't agree with the notion that that's all that's required or that one should be completely hands-off after that. _______________________ In the article in the Washington Post, you made a mention of monitoring software. Could you kindly tell me about some effective monitoring software? I'm not an expert on this software so I'm reluctant to give advice but I think if you simply search for monitoring software you will find a host of products. _______________________ I also am puzzled by the number of parents of young children who don't "just say no" to all the negative precocious influences our kids face, both on and off line. I have a 9 yr old girl and 6 yr old boy. There is no commercial TV watched in our house -- they can watch some PBS Kids and (mostly older) Disney-esque videos; we do not listen to pop music (only jazz and classical); they don't have any video games or game boys and understand that the computer is only for "mom and Dad's work". And certainly no email access! The kids are perfectly happy with that. They read books, climb trees, play imaginative games; and play musical instruments. Of course they will some day have to deal with modern technology in all its glory, but I see no reason for them to OD on it now at the expense of a childlike childhood. Curious, but what about their friends? I respect your line-drawing though it is a bit too strict for my tastes. But I have also found that there is a lot of popular culture that seeps in even though it's not permitted in your home. For example, we don't allow a number of television shows but my kids still seem to know all about them from their friends at school _______________________ We've been going through this with my 13 year with her email this week. She did the dumb thing and sent a mean email to someone, which is now being forwarded about. Of course, previously we had "the talk" about not emailing things you don't want repeated, but she didn't listen. We decided to take away her email for a time, because she doesn't understand the seriousness of what she did. She's not mature enough. As for invading her privacy....it's my house, my computer, and my Internet provider. When she has her own, then she has privacy. Not that I snoop, but I always reserve the right to. Most businesses let you know that they reserve the right to explore what you're doing on their computers and email. It should be no different at home. I definitely agree with taking away her e-mail. _______________________ My girls are the same age as yours and honestly, they've never asked for IM and they don't IM (common sense dictated that we put the computer in the family room). If they do, the answer will be no, I think IMing is annoying (which I do). They are really busy though with school and their activities plus they are old school and actually like to talk to their friends on the phones. They have no interest in MySpace either, but out of curiosity I have looked at it. You can do a search in it if you want to see what your kids are up to there. I will continue to do that, because I do think kids that age might not necessarily use good judgment about what to post online (look at Taylor Behl for an example). Well, it's a lot easier to say you'll say no when they're not asking for it. In my daughters' school IM'ing is a big social thing, so saying no--which we certainly considered--would be a big deal. And not to sound too defensive (!), but my kids do a LOT of other activities besides IM. _______________________ This is a good discussion, but I am taken aback that some parents grant their children a greater expectation of privacy at home than they themselves have in the workplace. I have always been very upfront with my 15 year-old son that he has no expectation of privacy on the Internet. He knows that I can and often do monitor his email, chats and web browsing. I would no more allow him to learn about the world of the Internet without my supervision that I allowed him to make decisions about dressing himself as a toddler, or than I will allow him to learn to drive next year. Children learn through example, instruction and experience. The Internet is merely a new forum, but no different than teaching toddlers that bathing suits are not suitable sledding attire. There should be no expectation that they will comprehend the hazards on line without supervision. Hi. So would you then eavesdrop on his phone calls and read his snail mail (if anyone ever got snail mail any more) or read his diary? I think that monitoring can be appropriate and called for under some circumstances, and I agree that parents make the rules, but I do not think the workplace analogy is the right one, at least for my family. _______________________ I hope all overly-clever parents are happy when your kids go out and find some real trouble in a real alley because they're sick of your micro-intervention into every thought and utterance of their lives. Frankly I'm sickened at what passes for parenting in my generation. I think that's extraordinarily unfair to people trying to grapple with a brave new world of technology and to strike the balance correctly. Most of the folks who have been talking here have been extremely thoughtful about what their roles ought to be and sensitive to overintrusiveness. _______________________ I'm really not trying to pick on you. My response to IMing is a big social thing will be to point out that someone who won't be your friend because you don't IM is not currently your friend now. Someone asked how you keep up with their yahoo e-mails. The way I did it was to set the yahoo account up myself. Basically it's an e-mail my kids share with me, and so my kids know I could look at it. And I too have had the conversation, like the person from Worcester and you, about gossiping and how mean girls will enjoy taking something you type and turning that around on you in a forwarded e-mail. They seemed to get that. Yes, I agree. I spend a lot of time telling my kids that just because X does something/has something/sees something does not dictate my decision about whether they can. But my point is simply that, seeing some benefits in IM as opposed to email and not being convinced of the problem side, the fact of its popularity among my kids' friends helped tip the balance in favor of permitting it. _______________________ We bought our house based in part on the location of where we planned to put our computers. We have two boys, 14 & 15, and we had a Google issue last summer when one looked up some pretty raunchy terms on the web. I found out when I went to use Google for something else. I asked and said son fessed up, saying he was curious what the term meant. Said he found some pretty horrendous stuff and hasn't looked since. We discussed that he could always ask us (but acknowledging that sometimes it's just too embarrassing to do so). Haven't had a problem since. Both have Myspace, facebook, xanga and Google chat, but have been responsible about what they post. (I check occasionally with their knowledge and consent. Sometimes they show me things that have been posted.) I will say, though, that one of the reasons we haven't installed a wireless network is that we don't want online laptop access in their rooms. The laptop doesn't go upstairs now, but I could see it becoming a temptation. The biggest computer issue for us, though, is turning off IM while doing homework! I have made it an absolute rule that IM must be off when kids are doing homework. Also music, though I'm told this is completely crazy. _______________________ Your reason for allowing your 9-year-old to IM was pretty lame...we won't deny little sister because big sister is in middle school and middle schoolers should IM. When older sister turns 15 and can drive does that mean the little sister should drive at 13? To expand a little bit on our 9-year-old, there are some girls she especially likes who IM, and the question was whether there was any harm in letting her chat on line with them. It's not driving underage or drinking or anything inherently harmful, hence our decision. _______________________ "In my daughter's school IM'ing is a big thing...." SO? Is the rest of her life hinging on this couple years at this particular school? Will every time her friends do something she has to follow? When they start drinking and smoking "But Mom, Everybody does it, I'm going to be left out!" Ignore the wails of self pity. Give your children something else more profitable to do, and teach them the excellent lesson of being able to be friends with other children and not necessarily have the same things nor do the same things they do. At the risk of repeating myself, my husband and I say no to lots of things--despite wails of self-pity. There are many movies that our kids' friends see that we don't allow. Ditto for TV shows, MTV, and other things. So I'm feeling pretty comfortable that they have learned your excellent lessons in other ways. _______________________ I have been working with the Internet as a job for nearly 20 years now, and one lesson I make sure that my kids know is that there is no privacy on the Internet. Anything that gets sent in email or IM can be spied upon by others, not just well meaning parents. My kids know that they need to be careful with personal information online. Whether they understand it or not is one thing, but it is so easy to snoop its not funny. Thanks for all the interesting comments. I knew this topic would strike a nerve and it's been fascinating to hear the various responses. I suspect that this issue is going to be with us for some time. Thanks for participating, and reading. _______________________ Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions. washingtonpost.com is not responsible for any content posted by third parties. |